[Time] Name | Message |
[06:52] Malinga
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hi all i have a question to be asked
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[06:53] Malinga
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about how to use OpenAMQ or ZeroMQ to deliver market data (quote server)
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[06:53] Malinga
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*effectively
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[06:56] Malinga
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hi any one there to help my technical question
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[07:00] sustrik
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what's the problem?
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[07:02] Malinga
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We are developing a Quote Server which will be handel the market data and deliver it to the end client
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[07:02] Malinga
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we are think of using a SOA architecture for this
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[07:03] Malinga
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So can u tell me some information how to use OpenAMQ to make this happen
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[07:04] guido_g
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hrhrhr
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[07:04] Malinga
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i used openamq 3 years back in my previous company as a middleware
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[07:04] guido_g
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sorry
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[07:04] sustrik
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openamq or 0mq?
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[07:04] Malinga
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but now i want to use it to deliver market data effectlvely and use this openAMQ as a quote server
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[07:04] Malinga
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any idas ?
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[07:04] guido_g
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you did realize that zeromq is not related to openamq?
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[07:05] Malinga
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if zeroMQ is better approach i can use ithat even
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[07:06] guido_g
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no its not better
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[07:06] guido_g
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its different
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[07:06] Malinga
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any architecture gudes that u can give sustrik ...
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[07:08] Malinga
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so can i use zero MQ for my senario
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[07:08] sustrik
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Malinga: on the quote publisher open a PUB socket
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[07:08] sustrik
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send the quotes to the socket
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[07:08] sustrik
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on clients, open a SUB socket
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[07:08] sustrik
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do your subscriptions
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[07:09] sustrik
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and recv() the messages
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[07:09] sustrik
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that's all
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[07:09] Malinga
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listning
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[07:09] Malinga
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this is via openAMQ right ?
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[07:09] sustrik
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no, it's 0mq
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[07:09] Malinga
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sorry
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[07:09] Malinga
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ok
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[07:10] Malinga
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so u think we can use the 0MQ to our market data quote server ?
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[07:10] sustrik
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yes
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[07:10] Malinga
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cool
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[07:10] sustrik
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have a look at 0mq guide
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[07:10] Malinga
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do u have some high level architecture on this is possible
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[07:10] sustrik
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there's an example of -- i think -- distributing weather forecase
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[07:11] sustrik
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forecast
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[07:11] Malinga
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hmmm
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[07:11] sustrik
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it's basically the same as you need for stock quotes
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[07:11] Malinga
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so like in openAMQ do we have to have per symbol queues sorry i dont have much ida about 0MQ
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[07:12] sustrik
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what do you need it for?
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[07:12] sustrik
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fair balancing between individual symbols?
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[07:14] Malinga
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u mean per symbol queues ?
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[07:16] Malinga
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what is the better open 0MQ or OpenAMQ for my quote server
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[07:17] sustrik
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openamq is a legacy technology
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[07:17] sustrik
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so i would recommend 0mq
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[07:17] sustrik
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it's also much easier to use
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[07:17] sustrik
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and you don't need the broker
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[07:17] sustrik
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which makes administration easier
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[07:17] Malinga
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cool
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[07:18] Malinga
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but our entire application (end clients) is in Java and hope to write back end also in java
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[07:18] sustrik
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sure
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[07:18] sustrik
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check java 0mq bindings
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[07:18] Malinga
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u have java wrappers right ?
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[07:18] sustrik
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yes
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[07:19] Malinga
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realiable as C++ ? i mean java wrappers ?
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[07:19] sustrik
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it's wrapper on top of C
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[07:19] sustrik
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so it's the same thing
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[07:19] Malinga
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JNI /
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[07:19] Malinga
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JNI ?
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[07:19] sustrik
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yes
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[07:19] Malinga
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hmmm
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[07:19] Malinga
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ok
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[07:19] Malinga
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let me read 0MQ
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[07:19] Malinga
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and come back to u in a few days
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[07:20] sustrik
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you are welcome
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[07:20] Malinga
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anyway thanks so much for all those informatin, i still can remember u helped me allot (u may not rememebr now) few years back also
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[07:21] Malinga
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when im doing another system with openAMQ
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[07:21] Malinga
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it was a gr8 sucess
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[07:21] Malinga
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thanks
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[07:21] Malinga
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and bye for now
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[07:21] sustrik
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i remember your nick :)
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[07:21] sustrik
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see you
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[07:42] CIA-21
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zeromq2: 03Min Ragan-Kelley 07master * r08cd2ce 10/ (AUTHORS include/zmq.h include/zmq_utils.h):
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[07:42] CIA-21
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zeromq2: resolve "function declaration isn't a prototype"
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[07:42] CIA-21
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zeromq2: change two declarations in headers to form f(void); instead of f();
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[07:42] CIA-21
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zeromq2: which eliminates the warnings when compiling against zeromq
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[07:42] CIA-21
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zeromq2: Signed-off-by: MinRK <benjaminrk@gmail.com> - http://bit.ly/fIJTkE
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[09:14] mikko
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good morning
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[09:29] sustrik
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morning
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[10:13] jugg
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After calling zmq_send(..., ZMQ_SNDMORE), is there a way to abort the transfer without sending the final message part? eg. If an application error occurs disallowing sending the final part(s), is closing the socket the only way to recover?
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[10:16] jugg
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A reset socket option would be nice...
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[10:18] mikko
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you mean reset as in send empty message part or a part flagged as "reset" ?
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[10:32] jugg
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I mean, abort the sending of the message parts (don't send them over the wire). Which they aren't at this point. However, currently either you have to send another message without sndmore set, thus the entire bad message is put on the wire, or you have to close the socket.
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[10:35] sustrik
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jugg: what are you trying to achieve?
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[10:35] sustrik
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how come the message is "bad"?
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[10:36] jugg
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the message is incomplete... the application code generating the message parts can not finish.
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[10:37] jugg
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Of course, the application code could wait until the entire message is built, but that isn't always interesting.
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[10:38] sustrik
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so what happens?
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[10:38] sustrik
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something like timeout?
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[10:38] jugg
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the application would like to go on to start building another message, but it can not send a new message until the old one completes. So it either has to allow a bad message to be sent, or close the socket.
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[10:39] sustrik
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i mean, how come the message is bad?
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[10:39] jugg
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it is incomplete
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[10:39] sustrik
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why are you sending it then?
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[10:40] jugg
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because it is sent as it is built.
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[10:40] sustrik
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hm
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[10:40] sustrik
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that's not what multi-part messages are for
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[10:40] jugg
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obviously a solution is to wait to send until it is fully built, but...
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[10:40] sustrik
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the goal is not to hold the list of message parts on behalf of the user
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[10:41] sustrik
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it's more like gather/scatter array
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[10:41] sustrik
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allowing for zero-copy of data that is not placed in contiguous memory
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[10:41] sustrik
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i would suggest holding the message parts in your app
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[10:41] jugg
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yes, I'm aware of what it is designed for... But that doesn't mean I won't try to extend its use case...
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[10:42] sustrik
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and sending only when the message is complete
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[10:42] sustrik
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sure, go on :)
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[10:43] jugg
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a socket reset option would help. - for other reasons as well, but I know I'll get more flac for those.. :)
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[10:43] jugg
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btw, I'll probably hit you up for erlzmq access tomorrow... it seems to be working well.
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[10:44] jugg
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Still a few more test cases to check.
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[10:44] sustrik
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well, my concert is that the option would bind the API to particular implementation
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[10:44] sustrik
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ie.
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[10:45] sustrik
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currently the code can be rewritten/optimised in such a way that message parts are sent over the wire
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[10:45] sustrik
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even if the message is not fully sent
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[10:45] sustrik
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and cached on the receiver side
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[10:45] sustrik
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if the connection breaks, the cached message parts would be discarded
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[10:46] jugg
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you'd have to send an abort message then, so the receiver could discard the incomplete parts.
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[10:46] sustrik
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the rollback option would then require to extent the wire protocol
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[10:46] sustrik
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exactly
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[10:46] jugg
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I see
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[10:46] sustrik
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the interactions are quite complex
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[10:47] sustrik
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now, doing that just to not force user to keep a simple list of message parts seems an overkill
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[10:48] sustrik
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in more generic terms, 0mq was designed to implement the minimal possible subset of features
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[10:48] sustrik
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everytihng that can be build on top was deliberately eliminated
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[10:48] sustrik
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so, if you want this kind of thing, just go on, implement a wrapper on top on 0mq
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[10:49] sustrik
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or maybe a whole stack layer that would provide all kind of additional functionality
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[10:49] jugg
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Well, that view point simplifies a problem I was having with the erlang bindings... :)
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[10:53] jugg
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I have to run. Thanks for the explanation. Combined with the discussion we had some time ago where I wanted zmq to send each part over the wire as it was received, I might be starting to 'get' it :)
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[10:54] sustrik
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it's simply avoinding the feature creep
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[10:54] sustrik
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see you later
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[11:38] parik
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Hi
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[11:40] sustrik
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hi
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[11:40] parik
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I was going through 0MQ src and found that it is based on PGM protocol.So i studied first PGM protocol and it was intersting need to know about multicasting
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[11:41] parik
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Like how no acknowledgment for successful delievery and negative acks for data loss and duplication of packet by the router
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[11:42] parik
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and hence reduce Server Load and Network Load
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[11:43] parik
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Do i need to download open PGM to make 0MQ work
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[11:44] parik
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I am not getting the defintion for pgm_init..I looked around in PGM also
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[11:44] parik
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Hi Sustrik are you there
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[11:44] sustrik
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parik: 0mq is multi-protocol
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[11:45] sustrik
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so you have tcp as well as pgm
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[11:45] sustrik
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if you don't need mutlicast you can just ignore pgm
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[11:45] sustrik
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if you need it, openpgm is packaged with 0mq (see foreign/openpgm subdir)
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[11:46] sustrik
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to build 0mq *with* pgm you need to add an option to confiuger:
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[11:46] parik
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Thanks Sustrik.
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[11:46] sustrik
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./configure --with-pgm
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[11:46] mikko
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does openpgm maintain ABI?
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[11:46] parik
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ok.Thanks alot.
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[11:46] parik
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What is ABI
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[11:46] mikko
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i'm wondering if packaging openpgm with 0mq makes sense in long-term
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[11:47] mikko
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application binary interface
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[11:47] sustrik
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it would be better to have an separate openpgm package
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[11:47] sustrik
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but so far it doesn't look like that
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[11:47] parik
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Thanks Mikko
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[11:47] mikko
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the main problem with current implementation being hard to upgrade and added maintenance for 0mq project
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[11:48] sustrik
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the actual fact, afaiu, is that most people are using openpg via 0mq
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[11:48] sustrik
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mikko: right
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[11:48] sustrik
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it's not obvious how to solve it though
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[11:48] mikko
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so there are situations where openpgm is supported on certain platform + compiler combination but cant be compiled with --with-pgm
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[11:49] parik
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You mean to say it's better to use open pgm pakage then that comes with OMQ
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[11:49] sustrik
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i am aware of that
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[11:50] sustrik
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but on the other hand requiring users to install scons and build openpgm by hand
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[11:50] mikko
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there are two ways to change it: a) decouple pgm completely from 0mq and have users install it separately b) build openpgm using their scons builds and just link against artifacts
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[11:50] sustrik
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manage the dependencies
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[11:50] sustrik
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etc.
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[11:50] mikko
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the latter adds dependency to scons
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[11:50] sustrik
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could be actually a barrier to adoption
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[11:50] mikko
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as does the former
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[11:50] parik
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So pgm that is bundled with 0MQ will be potable to all OS and architectures
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[11:50] mikko
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sustrik: in the long run 99% of the users will get 0mq via their distro
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[11:50] mikko
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well, maybe not that large amount but high percentage
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[11:50] sustrik
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yes
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[11:51] sustrik
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so the goal is to have openpgm packages for all distros and 0mq packages for all distros
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[11:51] sustrik
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we are quite far away from that afaics
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[11:51] sustrik
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the current system is the next best thing imo
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[11:52] mikko
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im not sure if dependency to scons is a large issue
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[11:52] mikko
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i see python as larger issue but that is already a dependency
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[11:52] sustrik
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huh
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[11:52] sustrik
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is it?
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[11:52] mikko
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yes
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[11:52] sustrik
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where?
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[11:52] sustrik
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openpgm?
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[11:52] mikko
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yes
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[11:52] sustrik
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oh my
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[11:53] mikko
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https://github.com/zeromq/zeromq2/blob/master/configure.in#L318
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[11:53] sustrik
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any idea of what is it used for?
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[11:53] mikko
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i don't but i can easily check
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[11:53] mikko
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foreign/openpgm/@pgm_basename@/openpgm/pgm/version.c: ../foreign/openpgm/@pgm_basename@/openpgm/pgm/version_generator.py
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[11:53] mikko
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python ../foreign/openpgm/@pgm_basename@/openpgm/pgm/version_generator.py > $@
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[11:54] sustrik
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hm
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[11:54] sustrik
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let me see
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[11:54] mikko
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https://github.com/zeromq/zeromq2/blob/master/src/Makefile.am
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[11:54] mikko
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github doesn't show lines so i can't link you directly
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[11:54] mikko
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but should be easy to find
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[11:56] sustrik
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the script generates the version name
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[11:56] sustrik
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possibly we can replace it by a hardcoded one
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[11:56] sustrik
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and thus drop the python dependency
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[11:57] mikko
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but then again, there hasn't been complaints about python dependency
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[11:58] sustrik
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the problem imo is that the build comes very early on in adoption process
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[11:59] sustrik
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so, say if you find a bug in 0mq, you are already using it
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[11:59] sustrik
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so it make sense to report the bug
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[11:59] sustrik
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or even fix it
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[11:59] sustrik
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however, if you are building it
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[11:59] sustrik
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it means you are using 0mq for 5 mins at the moment
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[12:00] sustrik
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if there's a problem, the simple solution is to just let it be
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[12:00] sustrik
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and use something else
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[12:00] mikko
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hmm
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[12:00] mikko
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i agree and disagree
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[12:01] mikko
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i agree that build issues will throw off people
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[12:01] mikko
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i disagree that clear dependency will throw off people, especially when it's build-time only
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[12:01] mikko
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we require autoconf 2.61 as well which is not available everywhere
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[12:02] sustrik
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ack
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[12:02] mikko
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brb, fetching lunch
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[12:02] sustrik
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otoh, autoconf is a standard package
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[12:02] sustrik
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openpgm is not yet a package
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[12:02] sustrik
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you have to build it by hand
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[12:02] sustrik
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etc.
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[12:02] sustrik
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bon appettit
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[12:13] parik
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Sustrik.Thanks alot.Yes I got pgm package inside foreign subdir.I am going to do code walkthrough before i take up and understands 0MQ
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[12:13] parik
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Thanks alot Sustrik once again
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[12:14] parik
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Thanks mikko
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[12:14] sustrik
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:)
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[12:15] parik
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Do I am going in right direction.I always wnat to know as much as possible so as this learning will help me somewhere
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[12:18] sustrik
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parik: have you seen the 0mq guide?
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[12:18] sustrik
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it's worth of reading for the starters
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[12:18] parik
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Yes ..
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[12:19] parik
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Thanks Sustrik.Actually I have not yet gone through it completely
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[12:20] sustrik
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ch1 & ch2 are the most important
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[12:20] sustrik
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to grasp the concept
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[12:20] parik
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When I come across 0MQ is based on PGM My entire focus goes to understand PGM first as I was not aware fo it earlier
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[12:21] parik
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I will definitly go through ch1 and ch2
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[12:21] sustrik
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parik: be careful with pgm
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[12:21] parik
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Now i understands PGM to certain extent to start with
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[12:22] sustrik
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mutlicast is only useful in special circumstances
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[12:22] parik
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You mean to say shall i not concentrate much on this
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[12:22] parik
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ok...
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[12:22] sustrik
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in most cases tcp makes more sense
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[12:22] sustrik
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pgm =very high volume pub/sub on LANs
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[12:22] sustrik
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it needs quite a lot of administration
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[12:22] parik
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But does not three way shaking makes it more congested in TCP
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[12:22] parik
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ok..
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[12:23] sustrik
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it requires good hardware etc.
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[12:23] parik
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You mean to say pgm compatible routers
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[12:23] parik
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upgraded hardware for performance
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[12:23] sustrik
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in most cases you don't event want multicast traffic pass the router
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[12:23] parik
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ok
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[12:23] sustrik
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rather i meant switches with IGMP snooping
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[12:24] Steve-o
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pgm routers are v. expensive
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[12:24] Steve-o
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switches are pretty easy, standard procurves work well
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[12:24] parik
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ok..So that's an expensive one
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[12:25] Steve-o
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well, v.expensive for gigabit capacity, cisco support it on almost their entire product range, expensive = US$10,000
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[12:26] parik
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oh...That's really expensive...
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[12:27] parik
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So then i will start with TCP.But no ways going through PGM gives me some insight of what is it and how does it work
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[12:27] parik
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I will start with TCP
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[12:27] Steve-o
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100mb is around $5,000 the closest I saw last check, slower speeds all the way down to $250 for DSL routers, etc.
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[12:28] Steve-o
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consider PGM an administrative option rather than anything particular technical for development
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[12:28] Steve-o
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that's how zeromq has been developed, choose a ZMQ_PUB socket and run it to the ground with TCP until you really need scaling
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[12:28] sustrik
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right, you can start with tcp and switch to pgm when needed
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[12:29] Steve-o
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consider TCP sockets are pretty much accelerated everywhere and PGM isn't anywhere
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[12:29] parik
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Thanks for guidance and making me to go in right direction
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[12:29] parik
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Yes I do agree
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[12:30] Steve-o
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but when you need it, it's awesome :D
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[12:30] parik
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I am a novice but got some useful tips from Sustrik and Steve
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[12:30] parik
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:-)
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[12:33] parik
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Just one thing I always want to work and write some protcols, creating some utility but i always wonder how can I start with
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[12:35] Steve-o
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implementing your own network protcol or are we talking above zeromq?
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[12:40] parik
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I mean to say something I can contribute to and involved myself as one of the developer
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[12:41] Steve-o
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well there is plenty of scope with zeromq
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[12:41] Steve-o
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a lot can be made on top, e.g. last value cache, certified delivery, transactional delivery, virtual circuits, http tunneling, encryption, authentication, proxying, etc
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[12:43] parik
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Great..Since I am novice and don't know How I can also be felt great of doing/contributing something..Just I want to know How can I contribute...Need some guidance on this front
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[12:44] Steve-o
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well it's usually easiest if you have a target architecture to develop for,
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[12:45] Steve-o
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for example a last value cache could be simply integrating memcached from TCP/UDP to zeromq sockets
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[12:45] keffo
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What's wrong with abstract logic? =)
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[12:47] parik
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Steve I am really sorry ..I didnot get it
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[12:49] Steve-o
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if you have a scenario to deploy something its easier than randomly creating something
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[12:49] Steve-o
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unless you are into computer science theory I guess
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[12:49] parik
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oh..
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[12:50] parik
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Yeah I am in Comuter Science
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[12:50] Steve-o
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there is one developer integrating zeromq with websockets for their app, that's pretty neat
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[12:51] parik
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ok..
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[12:52] Steve-o
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you can also pickup ideas from here: http://www.zeromq.org/docs:labs
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[12:53] parik
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Thanks alot Steve..I think this will really help.
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[12:55] parik
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Thanks Steve You have given me a starting point to start with..I
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[12:55] parik
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am really grateful to you
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[12:57] parik
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Thanks alot once again to Steve to Sustrik for guiding me and answering my doubts and given your precious time.
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[12:57] Steve-o
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good luck, post something on a blog and let us read about it
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[12:58] sustrik
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feel free to discuss your ideas on the mailing list
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[12:58] parik
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Thanks alot Steve.I will make it sure...
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[12:58] sustrik
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there's much more people there to comment then on irc
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[12:58] parik
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oh...ok
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[12:59] sustrik
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Steve-o: btw, your Tibco migration docs are really useful
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[12:59] sustrik
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especially the code examples
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[12:59] parik
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Thanks once again to Steve and Sustrik...I donot want to leave the discussion but i have to as I have to go but i will cherish the discussion with you people.You people are alot supported
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[12:59] sustrik
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it would be great if these were widely accessible
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[13:00] sustrik
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even if they are not perfect, it at least allows rv users to start somewhere
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[13:00] Steve-o
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ideally dumping in github or somewhere
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[13:00] Steve-o
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as I mentioned I already have C++ & Java examples but didn't include them
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[13:01] Steve-o
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but honestly I have no idea how you want rv users to migrate no-single-point-of-failure architectures
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[13:01] sustrik
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i would say the text can be dumped on a wiki page, while code examples can reside on github
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[13:02] sustrik
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well, we can address that later on
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[13:02] sustrik
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the important thing is make the initial docs accessible
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[13:02] Steve-o
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that will make all the order routing developers happy
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[13:03] keffo
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routing developer, now that's a career! :)
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[13:03] sustrik
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it's matter of time imo, you can't do everything straight away
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[13:04] sustrik
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so let them try 0mq, experiment with it, complain about it
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[13:04] sustrik
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and hopefully solution would emerge
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[13:04] keffo
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sustrik: Do you know if anyone has tried to bridge zmq with wcf?
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[13:04] sustrik
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i think i dimly remember something like that
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[13:05] sustrik
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but i may be wrong
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[13:05] Steve-o
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keffo: order routing is rather dull, especially FX
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[13:05] keffo
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Steve-o: my point yeah :)
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[13:06] Steve-o
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1,000 trades a day max, woohoo
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[13:06] keffo
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sustrik: It's easy enough to just call a zmq api inside a wcf service, but a somewhat more native method would be very useful
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[13:08] sustrik
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hm, tried googling?
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[13:08] keffo
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yeah
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[13:09] sustrik
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doesn't look like anything is available
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[13:10] sustrik
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small project for someone to spend weekend hacking :)
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[13:10] keffo
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hmm, rabbitmq seems to support it, and also federation services, that's totally awesome if they support full saml & adfs
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[13:10] keffo
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not that it helps in any way I guess, exept perusal of their code maybe
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[13:10] Steve-o
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presumably wcf 4 looks most interesting?
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[13:11] keffo
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how do you mean?
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[13:11] keffo
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if I did decide to try I would target the latest version obviously?
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[13:11] Steve-o
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the original cl wrapper was designed around .net 2 for greater compatibility
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[13:12] keffo
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I already have my loadbalancer ui in wpf, but there's something oddly appealing about hosting the loadbalancer directly in IIS, with the ui as a silverlight app
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[13:13] keffo
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Steve-o: this would be a lib, using the zmq api, and nothing more
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[13:31] keffo
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"The RabbitMQ .NET client is an implementation of an AMQP client library for C# (and, implicitly, other .NET languages), and a binding exposing AMQP services via Microsoft's Windows Communication Foundation (WCF)."
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[13:31] keffo
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So, doable
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[13:35] mikko
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http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/cc163394.aspx
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[13:35] mikko
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doesn't seem to be overly complicated to create custom bindings
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[13:36] mikko
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then again, i really dont know anything about windows
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[15:14] mikko
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sustrik: there?
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[15:14] sustrik
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mikko: yes
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[15:14] mikko
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where is api.zeromq.org hosted at?
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[15:16] sustrik
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here in bratislava
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[15:17] sustrik
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it's a box at the local ISP's datacenter afaik
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[15:17] mikko
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cool, i noticed that the 404 handler is not very user-friendly:
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[15:17] mikko
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http://api.zeromq.org/zmq_msg_close for example
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[15:18] mikko
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i can do a small page that shows "Did you mean: x"
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[15:18] mikko
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not sure if that is a high priority though
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[15:19] sustrik
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you have to speak to mato
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[15:19] sustrik
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he's managing the box
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[15:19] mikko
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where is mato nowadays btw?
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[15:19] sustrik
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new zealand
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[15:19] mikko
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contract work?
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[15:19] sustrik
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he's half slovak, half new zealander
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[15:19] sustrik
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on his holiday atm
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[15:20] sustrik
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i think he should be available shortly
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[21:46] Namei
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Hello
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[21:54] sustrik
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hi
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[22:01] mikko
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hi
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[22:01] Namei
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how are u ?
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[22:02] mikko
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im fine thank you
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[22:02] mikko
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yourself?
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[22:04] Namei
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the same :)
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[22:06] Namei
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i came in a english server to perfect my english, but it's hard lol
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[22:20] Namei
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good night
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