Sunday August 29, 2010

[Time] NameMessage
[01:15] manveru does anybody have an example of using 0mq with tcl?
[01:16] manveru i saw tcl support in some announcement, but haven't found any code...
[01:26] manveru not even a mention in the repo...
[01:27] manveru nowhere in the history
[01:31] manveru hm, ok... seems like all bindings where removed
[01:31] manveru but there is no reference to a tcl binding on
[01:32] manveru so it just... disappeared?
[08:21] sustrik manveru: there was a tcl binding for 0MQ/1.0
[08:21] manveru sustrik: yeah, i linked it above
[08:22] sustrik ah, i must have missed that
[08:22] sustrik you may want to update it to match 0MQ/2 API
[08:22] manveru i've never written any C...
[08:23] sustrik a nice way to try it :)
[08:23] sustrik looking at the code it looks pretty trivial
[08:23] sustrik
[08:24] sustrik basically just converting Tcp types to C types and vice versa
[08:24] sustrik Tcl*
[08:44] guido_g good morning
[09:49] pieter_hintjens guido_g: good morning! :-)
[09:52] guido_g hi pieter_hintjens
[09:52] guido_g hope you had a good trip
[09:53] pieter_hintjens RyanAir... brutally minimalistic, cheap, fast
[09:54] guido_g but still seats and not standing places, right? :)
[09:55] pieter_hintjens :-) that was a weird plan they had... though it makes sense for short hops
[09:56] guido_g ok
[09:57] guido_g anyway
[09:57] pieter_hintjens
[09:58] pieter_hintjens manveru: I've added a Tcl bindings page and linked to the old 0MQ/1.0 binding
[09:58] guido_g argh...
[09:59] pieter_hintjens someone who knows Tcl and C will spend a happy evening making this work
[11:18] rbraley probably a good source of publicity for 0MQ if someone makes a 0MQ interface to pubsubhubbub as they have with RabbitMQ. Also, is there a wish list managed somewhere to post such suggestions?
[12:14] pieter_hintjens rbraley: you might want to add the idea to the Labs page, that's the closest to a wishlist for things like bridges
[12:45] manveru pieter_hintjens: thank you
[12:46] pieter_hintjens manveru: np, let's see if this provokes someone to do it
[12:46] pieter_hintjens i'd try myself but never used tcl
[12:46] manveru heh
[12:46] manveru i'm not really that good with tcl myself yet... and i've never done C
[12:47] pieter_hintjens you might want to contact the original author and see if he wants to upgrade it
[12:48] pieter_hintjens
[12:53] sustrik it was brett cameron, malosek just cheked it in
[13:02] gebi hi all :)
[13:21] pieter_hintjens sustrik: good to know... I'll ping Brett then
[13:22] pieter_hintjens OK, done...
[16:22] sustrik @igrigorik: 0mq has the highest ratio of great code/features to poor marketing/docs/clarity, I've seen in a while. (name included)
[16:23] sustrik the guy is right that's extremely hard to find content on
[17:29] pieter_hintjens sustrik: it's not hard to improve the website, but what do we do about the name?
[18:22] sustrik nothing can be done about the name
[18:22] sustrik but we can improve the site
[18:23] sustrik it's just too chaotic right now
[18:24] sustrik first time visitor needs say 3 links, instead there's something like 50 on the front page
[18:28] jond hi martin
[18:28] sustrik jond: jon dyte?
[18:28] jond yep
[18:28] sustrik hi
[18:28] jond finally got to grips with this chat stuff
[18:29] sustrik :)
[18:29] sustrik how it's going?
[18:29] jond i think the page needs some stuff removing, it's very noisy these days.
[18:29] sustrik yes, that's my impression as well
[18:29] pieter_hintjens feel free to suggest what to remove and/or click edit
[18:30] pieter_hintjens it's a wiki :-)
[18:30] sustrik i've had a look at it as if i was a newbie, and i was just confused
[18:30] sustrik let me see...
[18:30] jond havent been doing much coding , but did find an issue with prefix tree
[18:30] pieter_hintjens the color scheme does not help, bright red links are painful
[18:30] sustrik jond: seen your patch
[18:30] sustrik i'll have a look at it tomorrow
[18:31] jond i think the font, logo are great.
[18:31] sustrik i like the design myself
[18:31] sustrik the problem is rather with usability
[18:32] sustrik especially for new people
[18:32] jond personally I liked 'destroy any network' from back in the day.
[18:32] sustrik that was pieter's text :)
[18:32] pieter_hintjens sustrik: what new visitors want is pretty obvious
[18:32] pieter_hintjens huge Download button
[18:32] pieter_hintjens all the rest is for returning visitors
[18:32] sustrik nope
[18:33] sustrik new visitor is not going to download immediately
[18:33] sustrik first he wants to know what is the whole thing about
[18:33] jond FWIW I think the blog bit, user comments are taking up too much real estate.
[18:33] pieter_hintjens that's what you assume
[18:33] pieter_hintjens jond: yeah
[18:33] sustrik have a look at google analytics
[18:33] sustrik content pane
[18:33] pieter_hintjens i keep removing them and keep getting asked to put them back
[18:34] pieter_hintjens well
[18:34] jond the languages list is too long 'others' should suffice for some
[18:34] pieter_hintjens what I *like* about the current site
[18:34] pieter_hintjens is that it's a navigation panel for the 0MQ community
[18:34] pieter_hintjens more or less
[18:34] sustrik that's the problem i think
[18:35] sustrik most of the people cominf to the site are not community
[18:35] pieter_hintjens sustrik: sunday evening... :-/
[18:35] pieter_hintjens i'm coding
[18:35] sustrik we get some 800 hits per day
[18:35] pieter_hintjens not really into this topic now, can we discuss tomorrow at the office?
[18:35] jond for returning users don't we need a seperate url?
[18:35] pieter_hintjens jond: two sites?
[18:35] sustrik pieter: you are in BA?
[18:36] pieter_hintjens sustrik: yes, from 2.30pm or so
[18:36] sustrik ah, good
[18:36] sustrik jond: what i had in mind is that main site must be compreensible for a random visitor
[18:36] pieter_hintjens wikis are always busy
[18:36] pieter_hintjens sustrik: there are no "random" visitors....
[18:36] sustrik as these account for say 90% of the traffic
[18:36] jond ph: yes, I've been wondering whether we need a dev and users maling list as well
[18:36] pieter_hintjens almost everyone comes via a recommendation
[18:36] sustrik i mean "non community" visitors
[18:37] pieter_hintjens jond: yes, but later, is our feeling
[18:37] pieter_hintjens sustrik: almost everyone comes because they've read a blog or a twitter comment
[18:37] pieter_hintjens they want to try it
[18:37] pieter_hintjens that is my assumption
[18:37] sustrik exactly
[18:37] jond if you are marketing a product then the front site needs to be clear and pretty stable
[18:37] sustrik they want to try it
[18:38] pieter_hintjens jond: it's an open source community, more than a product
[18:38] sustrik they are not really intrested in dev stuff
[18:38] jond the wiki aspect makes it a bit of a free for all, which is fine on the dev side
[18:38] pieter_hintjens well
[18:38] pieter_hintjens we're guessing
[18:38] pieter_hintjens this is pointless, it can go on for years
[18:38] sustrik that can be placed one click away
[18:38] sustrik have a look at analytics
[18:38] pieter_hintjens we need to actually get feedback from those newbies who apparently get lost
[18:38] jond i don't make that distinction, free software or not it's still a product and the brand needs managing
[18:38] pieter_hintjens one twitter comment does not make a study
[18:39] pieter_hintjens jond: yes, the brand is the community
[18:39] sustrik have a look what pages people are looking at
[18:40] jond ph: that could be construed as negative though, but i'm no marketing expert
[18:40] sustrik "cookbook"
[18:40] pieter_hintjens jond: 0MQ is first and foremost meant to be attractive to engineers, not managers
[18:40] pieter_hintjens here is an example of another community site:
[18:41] pieter_hintjens it handles 1,000's of newbies every day
[18:41] sustrik the guy comes to the site, reads the one paragraph introduction on the main page and wants to see a piece of code
[18:41] pieter_hintjens trying to keep the sparse look and a single page is a problem
[18:41] sustrik he checks the code and if it looks reasonable clicks on download
[18:41] jond ph: that might be a hard sell on a place with 10 yr old networking code
[18:42] pieter_hintjens sorry, guys, i'm not in the right frame of mind for this discussion
[18:42] sustrik pieter: sure, np
[18:42] pieter_hintjens too much caffeine :-)
[18:42] jond i'm on the rioja
[18:42] pieter_hintjens ah, i need to wait until the caffeine wears off
[18:43] pieter_hintjens look, it's easy to experiment
[18:43] pieter_hintjens copy the start page to a sandbox page, edit
[18:43] jond we need edward tuffe
[18:43] pieter_hintjens where's edward tuffe when you need him!?
[18:43] pieter_hintjens and who is edward tuffe?
[18:45] jond sorry it's tufte.
[18:46] jond envisioning information is the book, bit pre-web though. he invented sparklines
[18:46] pieter_hintjens i like the idea of two websites
[18:46] pieter_hintjens 1. newbies
[18:46] pieter_hintjens 2. community
[18:47] sustrik yes
[18:47] pieter_hintjens the newbie site should be minimalistic and pure to reflect the spirit of ØMQ
[18:47] sustrik it's only way not to overwhelm newbies
[18:47] pieter_hintjens while the community site should be rich and diverse and organic to reflect the spirt of the community
[18:47] sustrik yes
[18:48] pieter_hintjens the jond principle
[18:48] pieter_hintjens hah...
[18:48] pieter_hintjens we can do it with a single site
[18:48] pieter_hintjens with two different landing pages
[18:48] pieter_hintjens for members and non-members
[18:49] sustrik yes
[18:49] sustrik with a "community" button on the newbies page
[18:49] pieter_hintjens that means, when you register you see the full site
[18:49] pieter_hintjens hmm, well, technical issues maybe
[18:49] pieter_hintjens simplest is two wiki sites, they are trivial to create
[18:50] pieter_hintjens with, as you say, community button on newbies page
[18:50] sustrik one is ok, no registration should be requiread
[18:50] pieter_hintjens no, can't do it with one site
[18:50] sustrik so that newbie can click on "community"
[18:50] pieter_hintjens unless you want to annoy everyone with having a two-step access to the real site
[18:50] sustrik and see: wow! a lot of things going on!
[18:50] pieter_hintjens it's a link
[18:50] sustrik and the get back to newbies page :)
[18:51] pieter_hintjens we need to be simple, and to be the full site
[18:51] sustrik different urls?
[18:51] pieter_hintjens yes
[18:51] sustrik
[18:51] pieter_hintjens yes, dev
[18:51] pieter_hintjens wikidot has cross-site includes
[18:51] pieter_hintjens so www. can pull pages in from dev.
[18:51] pieter_hintjens css and so on, content too
[18:51] sustrik ok, why not
[18:51] pieter_hintjens we would rename the current site to dev. and make a new clean www. then
[18:52] pieter_hintjens 1 hour work
[18:52] sustrik ack
[18:52] pieter_hintjens let's do that tomorrow :-)
[18:52] sustrik ok
[18:53] pieter_hintjens btw i've stuck a loud and annoying "Please vote if you liked it" on the page template
[18:53] pieter_hintjens experimental, to see if we can filter out pages people use more often
[18:53] jond i've gotta go for now ; martin be interested in view on pftree patch and socket option thing tomorrow
[18:54] pieter_hintjens g'nite jond
[18:54] jond cheers, best
[18:54] sustrik jon: good noght
[18:55] sustrik night
[18:55] sustrik pieter: i would rely on analytics
[18:55] sustrik i don't believe enough people would vote to make it statistically relevant
[18:56] pieter_hintjens analytics shows what people read but not what they like
[18:56] sustrik especially newbies as voting requires creating a wikidot account iirc
[18:56] pieter_hintjens sure
[18:56] pieter_hintjens i see this more relevant to dev content
[18:56] sustrik ok
[18:56] pieter_hintjens in fact the www site should not have anything like this sophistication
[18:57] sustrik no, i would like it to have ~3 links
[18:57] sustrik maybe 4
[18:57] pieter_hintjens right
[18:57] pieter_hintjens random question, do you do memory leak tests on 0MQ?
[18:57] pieter_hintjens valgrind?
[18:57] sustrik yes
[18:57] sustrik valgrind
[18:57] pieter_hintjens have you tried mtrace?
[18:58] sustrik no
[18:58] pieter_hintjens ok, np, just wondered if anyone had experience with it
[19:34] bgranger pieter_hintjens: I just posted a question to the list, but it probably makes sense to discuss...
[19:34] sustrik brian, it's a matter of stability
[19:35] bgranger OK, that makes sense. Keep zeromq stable and have the other repos with less stable code?
[19:35] pieter_hintjens yes
[19:35] sustrik right
[19:35] bgranger OK, that sounds great.
[19:36] bgranger Are you sort of thinking of handling it like Apache does: projects start out as "incubator" until they are stable and then they move into "official" status?
[19:36] bgranger I mean, once other things become stable, would you consider moving them into zeromq?
[19:36] sustrik haven't thought that far yet
[19:36] bgranger I am trying to think about how I would handle wrapping these other things into Python...
[19:36] sustrik quite possibly imo
[19:37] bgranger i.e., do I start separate Python bindings for ZFL or just keep them in pyzmq...
[19:37] sustrik afaiu zfl is just a conveniece library
[19:37] sustrik no much point in porting it to python
[19:38] sustrik as for devices
[19:38] bgranger OK, but it could grow?
[19:38] sustrik in theory, however, i am not sure what can be possibly added
[19:38] sustrik the functionality is kind of self-contained and well-rounded
[19:39] bgranger Ok, I am just trying to get a sense of where it is headed
[19:39] sustrik hard to tell in advance
[19:39] bgranger Ok, I will just leave it for now and not worry about wrapping.
[19:39] sustrik but here's what my expectation is:
[19:40] sustrik the core library is pretty much stabilised and won't change much in the future
[19:40] sustrik it's not even likely major additions are made
[19:40] sustrik however, there may be other projects on top of 0mq
[19:40] sustrik say different devices
[19:40] sustrik bridges to different protocols
[19:41] bgranger Definitely
[19:41] sustrik etc.
[19:41] bgranger We already have other devices in pyzmq.
[19:41] bgranger :)
[19:41] sustrik exactly
[19:41] bgranger After they stablize, it may make sense to move them to zeromq
[19:41] sustrik i am not sure we can say:
[19:41] sustrik "this is the canonical set of devices"
[19:42] sustrik it's simply on people what they'll come with
[19:42] sustrik it's ecosystem rather than product
[19:42] sustrik so the core thing has to be kept separate
[19:42] bgranger Very true, i have a feeling that as time goes on, devices will expand. I could even imagine that devices become bridges to other protocols as well.
[19:42] bgranger This very much makes sense.
[19:42] sustrik otherwise it would change a lot :|
[19:43] sustrik bgranger: ack
[19:43] bgranger As a bindings maintainer, I like the idea of keeping the core stable!
[19:43] sustrik i think everyone does :)
[19:43] sustrik the less change the less work for everyone
[19:44] bgranger Yes, I was pleased with how little changed betweeen 2.0.7 and 2.0.8
[19:44] bgranger It took only 5-10 minutes to update things.
[19:45] sustrik we are past the "immature" phase i think
[19:45] sustrik when change happens a lot of people gets pissed off
[19:46] sustrik so welcome to the maintenance phase
[19:46] bgranger Yes, I am already running into that with the Python bindings. Even I can't change the core pyzmq API without getting a reaction.
[19:47] bgranger We are still doing a lot of work underneath the hood, but the core API is pretty stable for us.
[19:47] bgranger as well.
[19:47] sustrik yup
[19:47] bgranger OK, I am trying to catch up on the list traffic. I may be back...
[19:47] sustrik cya
[20:44] Blafasel Hi there. Played with MS MQ, need a ~lifo kind of queue, reliable. Is zeromq something I should investigate more? The "Guide" on the site stops when it gets interesting.. :)