[Time] Name | Message |
[01:15] manveru
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does anybody have an example of using 0mq with tcl?
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[01:16] manveru
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i saw tcl support in some announcement, but haven't found any code...
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[01:26] manveru
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not even a mention in the repo...
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[01:27] manveru
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nowhere in the history
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[01:31] manveru
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hm, ok... seems like all bindings where removed
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[01:31] manveru
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but there is no reference to a tcl binding on zeromq.org
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[01:32] manveru
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so it just... disappeared?
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[08:21] sustrik
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manveru: there was a tcl binding for 0MQ/1.0
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[08:21] manveru
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sustrik: yeah, i linked it above
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[08:22] sustrik
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ah, i must have missed that
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[08:22] sustrik
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you may want to update it to match 0MQ/2 API
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[08:22] manveru
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i've never written any C...
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[08:23] sustrik
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a nice way to try it :)
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[08:23] sustrik
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looking at the code it looks pretty trivial
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[08:23] sustrik
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http://github.com/zeromq/zeromq1/blob/master/libtclzmq/zmq.c
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[08:24] sustrik
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basically just converting Tcp types to C types and vice versa
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[08:24] sustrik
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Tcl*
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[08:44] guido_g
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good morning
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[09:49] pieter_hintjens
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guido_g: good morning! :-)
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[09:52] guido_g
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hi pieter_hintjens
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[09:52] guido_g
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hope you had a good trip
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[09:53] pieter_hintjens
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RyanAir... brutally minimalistic, cheap, fast
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[09:54] guido_g
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but still seats and not standing places, right? :)
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[09:55] pieter_hintjens
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:-) that was a weird plan they had... though it makes sense for short hops
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[09:56] guido_g
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ok
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[09:57] guido_g
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anyway
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[09:57] pieter_hintjens
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http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/831562--ryanair-looking-at-standing-seats-pay-toilets
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[09:58] pieter_hintjens
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manveru: I've added a Tcl bindings page and linked to the old 0MQ/1.0 binding
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[09:58] guido_g
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argh...
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[09:59] pieter_hintjens
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someone who knows Tcl and C will spend a happy evening making this work
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[11:18] rbraley
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https://code.google.com/p/pubsubhubbub/wiki/Hubs probably a good source of publicity for 0MQ if someone makes a 0MQ interface to pubsubhubbub as they have with RabbitMQ. Also, is there a wish list managed somewhere to post such suggestions?
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[12:14] pieter_hintjens
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rbraley: you might want to add the idea to the Labs page, that's the closest to a wishlist for things like bridges
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[12:45] manveru
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pieter_hintjens: thank you
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[12:46] pieter_hintjens
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manveru: np, let's see if this provokes someone to do it
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[12:46] pieter_hintjens
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i'd try myself but never used tcl
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[12:46] manveru
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heh
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[12:46] manveru
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i'm not really that good with tcl myself yet... and i've never done C
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[12:47] pieter_hintjens
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you might want to contact the original author and see if he wants to upgrade it
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[12:48] pieter_hintjens
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http://github.com/inbox/new/malosek
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[12:53] sustrik
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it was brett cameron, malosek just cheked it in
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[13:02] gebi
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hi all :)
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[13:21] pieter_hintjens
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sustrik: good to know... I'll ping Brett then
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[13:22] pieter_hintjens
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OK, done...
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[16:22] sustrik
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@igrigorik: 0mq has the highest ratio of great code/features to poor marketing/docs/clarity, I've seen in a while. (name included)
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[16:23] sustrik
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the guy is right that's extremely hard to find content on zeromq.org
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[17:29] pieter_hintjens
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sustrik: it's not hard to improve the website, but what do we do about the name?
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[18:22] sustrik
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nothing can be done about the name
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[18:22] sustrik
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but we can improve the site
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[18:23] sustrik
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it's just too chaotic right now
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[18:24] sustrik
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first time visitor needs say 3 links, instead there's something like 50 on the front page
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[18:28] jond
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hi martin
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[18:28] sustrik
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jond: jon dyte?
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[18:28] jond
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yep
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[18:28] sustrik
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hi
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[18:28] jond
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finally got to grips with this chat stuff
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[18:29] sustrik
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:)
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[18:29] sustrik
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how it's going?
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[18:29] jond
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i think the page needs some stuff removing, it's very noisy these days.
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[18:29] sustrik
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yes, that's my impression as well
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[18:29] pieter_hintjens
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feel free to suggest what to remove and/or click edit
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[18:30] pieter_hintjens
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it's a wiki :-)
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[18:30] sustrik
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i've had a look at it as if i was a newbie, and i was just confused
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[18:30] sustrik
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let me see...
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[18:30] jond
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havent been doing much coding , but did find an issue with prefix tree
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[18:30] pieter_hintjens
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the color scheme does not help, bright red links are painful
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[18:30] sustrik
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jond: seen your patch
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[18:30] sustrik
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i'll have a look at it tomorrow
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[18:31] jond
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i think the font, logo are great.
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[18:31] sustrik
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i like the design myself
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[18:31] sustrik
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the problem is rather with usability
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[18:32] sustrik
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especially for new people
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[18:32] jond
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personally I liked 'destroy any network' from back in the day.
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[18:32] sustrik
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that was pieter's text :)
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[18:32] pieter_hintjens
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sustrik: what new visitors want is pretty obvious
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[18:32] pieter_hintjens
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huge Download button
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[18:32] pieter_hintjens
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all the rest is for returning visitors
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[18:32] sustrik
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nope
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[18:33] sustrik
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new visitor is not going to download immediately
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[18:33] sustrik
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first he wants to know what is the whole thing about
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[18:33] jond
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FWIW I think the blog bit, user comments are taking up too much real estate.
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[18:33] pieter_hintjens
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that's what you assume
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[18:33] pieter_hintjens
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jond: yeah
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[18:33] sustrik
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have a look at google analytics
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[18:33] sustrik
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content pane
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[18:33] pieter_hintjens
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i keep removing them and keep getting asked to put them back
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[18:34] pieter_hintjens
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well
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[18:34] jond
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the languages list is too long 'others' should suffice for some
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[18:34] pieter_hintjens
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what I *like* about the current site
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[18:34] pieter_hintjens
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is that it's a navigation panel for the 0MQ community
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[18:34] pieter_hintjens
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more or less
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[18:34] sustrik
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that's the problem i think
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[18:35] sustrik
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most of the people cominf to the site are not community
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[18:35] pieter_hintjens
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sustrik: sunday evening... :-/
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[18:35] pieter_hintjens
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i'm coding
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[18:35] sustrik
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we get some 800 hits per day
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[18:35] pieter_hintjens
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not really into this topic now, can we discuss tomorrow at the office?
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[18:35] jond
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for returning users don't we need a dev.zeromq.org seperate url?
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[18:35] pieter_hintjens
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jond: two sites?
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[18:35] sustrik
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pieter: you are in BA?
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[18:36] pieter_hintjens
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sustrik: yes, from 2.30pm or so
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[18:36] sustrik
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ah, good
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[18:36] sustrik
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jond: what i had in mind is that main site must be compreensible for a random visitor
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[18:36] pieter_hintjens
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wikis are always busy
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[18:36] pieter_hintjens
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sustrik: there are no "random" visitors....
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[18:36] sustrik
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as these account for say 90% of the traffic
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[18:36] jond
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ph: yes, I've been wondering whether we need a dev and users maling list as well
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[18:36] pieter_hintjens
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almost everyone comes via a recommendation
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[18:36] sustrik
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i mean "non community" visitors
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[18:37] pieter_hintjens
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jond: yes, but later, is our feeling
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[18:37] pieter_hintjens
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sustrik: almost everyone comes because they've read a blog or a twitter comment
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[18:37] pieter_hintjens
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they want to try it
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[18:37] pieter_hintjens
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that is my assumption
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[18:37] sustrik
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exactly
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[18:37] jond
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if you are marketing a product then the front site needs to be clear and pretty stable
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[18:37] sustrik
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they want to try it
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[18:38] pieter_hintjens
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jond: it's an open source community, more than a product
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[18:38] sustrik
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they are not really intrested in dev stuff
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[18:38] jond
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the wiki aspect makes it a bit of a free for all, which is fine on the dev side
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[18:38] pieter_hintjens
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well
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[18:38] pieter_hintjens
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we're guessing
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[18:38] pieter_hintjens
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this is pointless, it can go on for years
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[18:38] sustrik
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that can be placed one click away
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[18:38] sustrik
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have a look at analytics
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[18:38] pieter_hintjens
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we need to actually get feedback from those newbies who apparently get lost
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[18:38] jond
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i don't make that distinction, free software or not it's still a product and the brand needs managing
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[18:38] pieter_hintjens
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one twitter comment does not make a study
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[18:39] pieter_hintjens
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jond: yes, the brand is the community
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[18:39] sustrik
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have a look what pages people are looking at
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[18:40] jond
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ph: that could be construed as negative though, but i'm no marketing expert
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[18:40] sustrik
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"cookbook"
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[18:40] pieter_hintjens
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jond: 0MQ is first and foremost meant to be attractive to engineers, not managers
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[18:40] pieter_hintjens
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here is an example of another community site: http://community.wikidot.com/
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[18:41] pieter_hintjens
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it handles 1,000's of newbies every day
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[18:41] sustrik
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the guy comes to the site, reads the one paragraph introduction on the main page and wants to see a piece of code
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[18:41] pieter_hintjens
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trying to keep the sparse look and a single page is a problem
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[18:41] sustrik
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he checks the code and if it looks reasonable clicks on download
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[18:41] jond
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ph: that might be a hard sell on a place with 10 yr old networking code
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[18:42] pieter_hintjens
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sorry, guys, i'm not in the right frame of mind for this discussion
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[18:42] sustrik
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pieter: sure, np
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[18:42] pieter_hintjens
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too much caffeine :-)
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[18:42] jond
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i'm on the rioja
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[18:42] pieter_hintjens
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ah, i need to wait until the caffeine wears off
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[18:43] pieter_hintjens
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look, it's easy to experiment
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[18:43] pieter_hintjens
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copy the start page to a sandbox page, edit
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[18:43] jond
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we need edward tuffe
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[18:43] pieter_hintjens
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where's edward tuffe when you need him!?
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[18:43] pieter_hintjens
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and who is edward tuffe?
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[18:45] jond
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sorry it's tufte. http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/
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[18:46] jond
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envisioning information is the book, bit pre-web though. he invented sparklines
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[18:46] pieter_hintjens
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i like the idea of two websites
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[18:46] pieter_hintjens
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1. newbies
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[18:46] pieter_hintjens
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2. community
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[18:47] sustrik
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yes
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[18:47] pieter_hintjens
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the newbie site should be minimalistic and pure to reflect the spirit of ÃMQ
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[18:47] sustrik
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it's only way not to overwhelm newbies
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[18:47] pieter_hintjens
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while the community site should be rich and diverse and organic to reflect the spirt of the community
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[18:47] sustrik
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yes
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[18:48] pieter_hintjens
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the jond principle
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[18:48] pieter_hintjens
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hah...
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[18:48] pieter_hintjens
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we can do it with a single site
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[18:48] pieter_hintjens
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with two different landing pages
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[18:48] pieter_hintjens
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for members and non-members
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[18:49] sustrik
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yes
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[18:49] sustrik
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with a "community" button on the newbies page
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[18:49] pieter_hintjens
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that means, when you register you see the full site
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[18:49] pieter_hintjens
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hmm, well, technical issues maybe
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[18:49] pieter_hintjens
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simplest is two wiki sites, they are trivial to create
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[18:50] pieter_hintjens
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with, as you say, community button on newbies page
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[18:50] sustrik
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one is ok, no registration should be requiread
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[18:50] pieter_hintjens
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no, can't do it with one site
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[18:50] sustrik
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so that newbie can click on "community"
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[18:50] pieter_hintjens
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unless you want to annoy everyone with having a two-step access to the real site
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[18:50] sustrik
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and see: wow! a lot of things going on!
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[18:50] pieter_hintjens
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it's a link
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[18:50] sustrik
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and the get back to newbies page :)
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[18:51] pieter_hintjens
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we need www.zeromq.org to be simple, and community.zeromq.org to be the full site
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[18:51] sustrik
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different urls?
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[18:51] pieter_hintjens
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yes
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[18:51] sustrik
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dev.zeromq.org
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[18:51] pieter_hintjens
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yes, dev
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[18:51] pieter_hintjens
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wikidot has cross-site includes
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[18:51] pieter_hintjens
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so www. can pull pages in from dev.
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[18:51] pieter_hintjens
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css and so on, content too
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[18:51] sustrik
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ok, why not
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[18:51] pieter_hintjens
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we would rename the current site to dev. and make a new clean www. then
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[18:52] pieter_hintjens
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1 hour work
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[18:52] sustrik
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ack
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[18:52] pieter_hintjens
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let's do that tomorrow :-)
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[18:52] sustrik
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ok
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[18:53] pieter_hintjens
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btw i've stuck a loud and annoying "Please vote if you liked it" on the page template
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[18:53] pieter_hintjens
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experimental, to see if we can filter out pages people use more often
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[18:53] jond
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i've gotta go for now ; martin be interested in view on pftree patch and socket option thing tomorrow
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[18:54] pieter_hintjens
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g'nite jond
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[18:54] jond
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cheers, best
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[18:54] sustrik
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jon: good noght
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[18:55] sustrik
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night
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[18:55] sustrik
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pieter: i would rely on analytics
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[18:55] sustrik
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i don't believe enough people would vote to make it statistically relevant
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[18:56] pieter_hintjens
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analytics shows what people read but not what they like
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[18:56] sustrik
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especially newbies as voting requires creating a wikidot account iirc
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[18:56] pieter_hintjens
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sure
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[18:56] pieter_hintjens
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i see this more relevant to dev content
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[18:56] sustrik
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ok
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[18:56] pieter_hintjens
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in fact the www site should not have anything like this sophistication
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[18:57] sustrik
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no, i would like it to have ~3 links
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[18:57] sustrik
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maybe 4
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[18:57] pieter_hintjens
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right
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[18:57] pieter_hintjens
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random question, do you do memory leak tests on 0MQ?
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[18:57] pieter_hintjens
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valgrind?
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[18:57] sustrik
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yes
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[18:57] sustrik
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valgrind
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[18:57] pieter_hintjens
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have you tried mtrace?
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[18:58] sustrik
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no
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[18:58] pieter_hintjens
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ok, np, just wondered if anyone had experience with it
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[19:34] bgranger
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pieter_hintjens: I just posted a question to the list, but it probably makes sense to discuss...
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[19:34] sustrik
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brian, it's a matter of stability
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[19:35] bgranger
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OK, that makes sense. Keep zeromq stable and have the other repos with less stable code?
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[19:35] pieter_hintjens
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yes
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[19:35] sustrik
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right
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[19:35] bgranger
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OK, that sounds great.
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[19:36] bgranger
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Are you sort of thinking of handling it like Apache does: projects start out as "incubator" until they are stable and then they move into "official" status?
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[19:36] bgranger
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I mean, once other things become stable, would you consider moving them into zeromq?
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[19:36] sustrik
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haven't thought that far yet
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[19:36] bgranger
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I am trying to think about how I would handle wrapping these other things into Python...
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[19:36] sustrik
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quite possibly imo
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[19:37] bgranger
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i.e., do I start separate Python bindings for ZFL or just keep them in pyzmq...
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[19:37] sustrik
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afaiu zfl is just a conveniece library
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[19:37] sustrik
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no much point in porting it to python
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[19:38] sustrik
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as for devices
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[19:38] bgranger
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OK, but it could grow?
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[19:38] sustrik
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in theory, however, i am not sure what can be possibly added
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[19:38] sustrik
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the functionality is kind of self-contained and well-rounded
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[19:39] bgranger
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Ok, I am just trying to get a sense of where it is headed
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[19:39] sustrik
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hard to tell in advance
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[19:39] bgranger
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Ok, I will just leave it for now and not worry about wrapping.
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[19:39] sustrik
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but here's what my expectation is:
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[19:40] sustrik
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the core library is pretty much stabilised and won't change much in the future
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[19:40] sustrik
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it's not even likely major additions are made
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[19:40] sustrik
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however, there may be other projects on top of 0mq
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[19:40] sustrik
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say different devices
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[19:40] sustrik
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bridges to different protocols
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[19:41] bgranger
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Definitely
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[19:41] sustrik
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etc.
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[19:41] bgranger
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We already have other devices in pyzmq.
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[19:41] bgranger
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:)
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[19:41] sustrik
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exactly
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[19:41] bgranger
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After they stablize, it may make sense to move them to zeromq
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[19:41] sustrik
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i am not sure we can say:
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[19:41] sustrik
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"this is the canonical set of devices"
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[19:42] sustrik
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it's simply on people what they'll come with
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[19:42] sustrik
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it's ecosystem rather than product
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[19:42] sustrik
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so the core thing has to be kept separate
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[19:42] bgranger
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Very true, i have a feeling that as time goes on, devices will expand. I could even imagine that devices become bridges to other protocols as well.
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[19:42] bgranger
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This very much makes sense.
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[19:42] sustrik
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otherwise it would change a lot :|
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[19:43] sustrik
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bgranger: ack
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[19:43] bgranger
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As a bindings maintainer, I like the idea of keeping the core stable!
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[19:43] sustrik
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i think everyone does :)
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[19:43] sustrik
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the less change the less work for everyone
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[19:44] bgranger
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Yes, I was pleased with how little changed betweeen 2.0.7 and 2.0.8
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[19:44] bgranger
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It took only 5-10 minutes to update things.
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[19:45] sustrik
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we are past the "immature" phase i think
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[19:45] sustrik
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when change happens a lot of people gets pissed off
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[19:46] sustrik
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so welcome to the maintenance phase
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[19:46] bgranger
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Yes, I am already running into that with the Python bindings. Even I can't change the core pyzmq API without getting a reaction.
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[19:47] bgranger
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We are still doing a lot of work underneath the hood, but the core API is pretty stable for us.
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[19:47] bgranger
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as well.
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[19:47] sustrik
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yup
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[19:47] bgranger
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OK, I am trying to catch up on the list traffic. I may be back...
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[19:47] sustrik
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cya
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[20:44] Blafasel
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Hi there. Played with MS MQ, need a ~lifo kind of queue, reliable. Is zeromq something I should investigate more? The "Guide" on the site stops when it gets interesting.. :)
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